INTERVIEWING Knights of the Dinner Table Creator Jolly Blackburn

INTERVIEW: JOLLY BLACKBURN, Story Teller, Game Designer, Writer, Gamer
By Alex Ness
October 6, 2025

I used to go to grad school far from home. My wife remained there while I was 200 miles away. We lived apart so I had numerous weekends where none of my friends shared my pastimes or interests, so I was alone. But I found gaming material to build my fictional worlds, and the best creator of the early 1990s was Jolly Blackburn. I found his work in the magazine Shadis, and found most of the back issues in the archive vaults of The Source Comics and Games. He created a corporate feel for his magazine that was serious, but fun. Also, he never talked down to or about the fans of the hobby or games. Shadis went different directions, Knights of the Dinner table went to Dragon, and Kenzer and Company soon began to publish the various works of Mr. Blackburn.

His KODT creation was something that let fans know that, he'd been in the gaming life just like them. His game commentary and editorial flavor ended up creating more than just good reading, but informational and valuable game aids.

Over time I did connect on Facebook and Twitter/x but more with his wife Barbara at that time. She probably felt pity on a long time gamer wanting to ask questions. That was more than 10 years ago.

But this interview reflects at least 15 questions I've wanted to ask, and when Jolly said sure, I pumped a fist and shouted hoody hoo.  (KODT fans will identify).

I present here, therefore, an interview with Jolly Blackburn...

What led you to move from playing games, of your construction, and
of others, to the creating new games and worlds? Was it the absence 
of what you were looking for, or was it homage to that which you
enjoyed?

Honestly, from the very beginning when I first started discovered gaming in high school, (although at the time it was Avalon Hill titles and other cardboard chit war games) it was just natural for me to want to apply my own house rules and build on them. That was even more true later, which I discovered RPGs like Dungeons and Dragons. My friends and I, much like gamers every where I suspect  were constantly creating our own random tables, adding house rules and engaging in world-building.

Every gamer I knew at the time in fact, had a desire to their own role-playing game system that catered to a specific favorite theme or niche, and I was no different in that regard. I recall having an interest in WWII at the time, and designing adventues with the D&D rules that allowed players to take on the role of squads on patrol. 😉 For me RPGs were an answer to prayer. It let me scratch all the various creative itches I had. Part of me wanted to be an artist for example, despite the fact I was lacking in those skills. Another part of me wanted to be a writer. I also had a keen interest in the Sciences (I majored in Cultural Anthropolgy in college). Gaming let me throw myself at all the interests and have a reason to focus on them.



If you had not entered works about or creative of ttRPGs, where
would you have gone? I believe my gaming would never have arrived in
certain positive places without reading your works, and thoughts on
the subject. And what traits are best for someone entering the world
of RPGs and gaming in general?

I’ve often wondered what would have happened if one of my friends hadn’t shown up one night with the D&D Whitebox edition. It changed my world. I’d always wanted to be a writer, ever since I could remember. So that was something I was spent a lot of time doing. Mostly fiction, set in a world of my own making (inspired by my love of LotR and Dune). I’d like to think I would have continued that pursuit, although I have no idea how successful I would have been. But I know it’s something I would have never stopped chasing. As far as my college education, I had a mind on teaching and felt that is what I would have ended up doing eventually.



I know dozens of RPGers who came to play as a result of being in 
the military, on a base, with nothing to do but sleep, eat, work or 
read. One fellow sent me a 20 page hand written letter about the
comics they read, and wanted a best fantasy, best superhero, best
 horror list. And later he sent another one about ttRPGs. His many friends in the military RPGed. I must say, they were
 highly insightful. I suspect it is from having the time to think, the 
time to play, and the lack of things to distract. How did your
 experience in the military, and time away from home mold your
 development of games, and writing about them?

I joined the Army after college, (and after getting married). My wife and I wanted to see the world before settling down and the Army had a married couple program at the time that guaranteed we’d always be assigned together. So it was perfect. We were both already avid gamers. Something we did all through college together during dates with two other couples we knew. We developed a habit of hitting a new base, seeking out the local gamers and starting a D&D group and making friends. It was a great experience. My time in the military indirectly inspired by first gaming endeavor — Shadis Magazine. Originally it was meat to be a newsletter of sorts for all the players who had played in the many groups I ran while in the Army. A way for them to be involved in the campaign world, even if they weren’t actively playing in it. Part of the idea was to present maps from the world (Alderac) each issue along with an anthology of fiction set in that world that were loosely interlinked. From that idea, it slowly turned into a gaming magazine. So I owe a lot of my military experiences.



(click to enlarge)

In reading Knights of the Dinner Table, it is clearly a satire of 
the tropes found in long term gaming groups. It doesn't require being a play
er to find funny, but if one plays an RPG with a group, they will definitely find themselves, somehow, in those characters. Did you base 
the players on real people, and if so, have the characters acquired
 new and longer lives of their own since the beginning?

I definitely drew inspiration from real people I knew when creating the original characters, and I still do so when introducing new characters to this day. It’s a good way to hit the ground running with a character having personality and certain traits that set them apart from the others. But I find the characters quickly take on their own qualities as time moves on and quickly so. For example, Bob Herzog was based on my good friend Lew. Lew is one of the greatest guys you could ever meet. Nothing like Bob — other than the fact that years ago in college, I explained a rule to him wrong while we were playing, Avalon Hill’s, Luftwaffe and the flipped the table in a moment of anger. But that one moment is what I borrowed when creating Bob.



Is Brian, of KODT, an example of Lawful Evil character? He knows 
the rules, will do whatever it takes to get his way, but cooperates since it helps the mission succeed. I know, I know, it is just a game, 
but Brian and Sarah seem to get along, despite her being Good.

I don’t think of Brian as Evil or particular bad, just someone with a lot of flaws that tend to trip him up. He wants to be good, and probably thinks himself a good person, but his wiring sabotages him. I think that’s something Sara recognizes that many of this others friend don’t. In fact at one point, in the comics, after Brian’s life has completely gone off the rails, she pulls him aside and more or less offers to be his social bodyguard (simply nudging Brian by saying, “You’re doing it again!” when his behavior is becoming destructive. I’ve games with people like Brian over the years. People who are fundamentally good people but have a lot of baggage that trips them up. Maybe they get caught up in the game, either wanting to win, to be the hero in any given situation, or just to be recognized and have center stage.

As the character developed over the years, I started to explore Brian's childhood and background, revealing (and hinting) that he has suffered a lot of trauma. In one strip, where accidentally locks himself in the basement (along with Bob and Dave) A significant moment occurs in that strip when a photograph of Brian’s father in a box and Brian completely freaks out, insisting, "Put that away. Put that away!"  In another strip, it’s revealed Brian lost his parents when they killed in a car accident, and his uncle was mishandled his trust fund. So there are many layers to Brian.

Again, my take is Brian takes comfort in the game because there are rules that help make sense out of all the chaos — at least within the game. And those rules provide him a sense of control, unlike his real where everything seems to go wrong. Unfortunately, this desire to control the game can lead others to perceive him as the bad guy. Especially when the tried to bend and twist them to his advantage. Okay, you’re right. It IS just a comic book. Lol. But I’ve spent a lot of time with these characters.



What is the most rewarding aspect of creating KODT? Is it catching 
the true vibe of gamers at play, delving the ideas and aspirations of
 players in RPGs, or something more? I sincerely enjoy the love you
seem to have about the event of playing, with no judgment of the
 specific character traits or their aspirations of success?

That’s a good question. And honestly, I think it’s rewarding for me on so many levels. For many of the same reasons I love RPGs. I get to exercise so many creative muscles through the strips. Drawing, something I was never great at but enjoyed doing. Storytelling. That sense of shared experiences with the reader. Making people laugh, or occasionally touching them in some way. And to my surprise, there’s even a lot of world building involved. Both the world the characters live in, the “Muncieverse” (a term a reader coined by the way) and the worlds the characters play in in-game.

Even though it was a bit of an accident and I fell into doing a comic about gamers, looking back it has to be the best possible path I could have taken. If I’m short on ideas, I usually find just taking a couple of characters and putting them in a panel and letting them talk, is enough to get me going. 



I truly appreciate what Dave Arneson and Gary Gygax created. I
 interviewed Gygax 20 years back. But one thing about RPGing, I never 
bought into, or thought I did, anyway, was "official rules or 
content." I wonder, if RPGs have rules, how firm are they, as the
 whole of the system is played in the minds of players. No one would 
change Stratego or Risk, (no, they would, just not with as little fear
of changing the game). Do RPGs occupy a special place in games, where 
the rules are basically agreed on, and changed for a different play?

Personally my experience has always been the rules add structure to the game we all already knew as kids, playing pretend. Those rules can always be changed. Especially if those playing all agree. Right out the gate, like many gamers back in the day we were using homebrewed critical hit tables for maximum rolls and fumble tables for rolling a 1. Despite the fact, Gary railed against them in Dragon Magazine. It was just part of the fun. On the other hand, I greatly appreciate the fact that Gary attempted a Hoyle’s Rules approach to D&D and tried, at least early on, to encourage everyone to play by the same rules. In the military it was of great benefit. I could got anywhere in the world, find a local D&D group and be fairly confident we were all playing by the same rules, other than any house-rules that may have been added. AD&D in particular was like the Rosetta Stone in that regard. And I think it helped the game to grow and be shared.



Incidentally, I know in later years, Gary backed off the idea of having to have a rule for every occasion.



Is Fantasy the easiest genre of RPGing to create within? Would
 Space RPGs therefore be the most difficult? I suggest so because one
 is born from the imagination, whereas the ability to RPG in space
would necessarily need technical and science knowledge to function...

I suppose Fantasy is the easiest for most people. Since there are fewer restrictions or expectations. “Hey my dragons are never surprised and can breathe any number of times!” Who’s going to argue with you?  But if I say, (quoting B.A.), “Hydrogen is a very rare element.”, yeah, I’m tripping over actual science. And my players might laugh at me. That said, I love most all genres of RPGs. Back before I started SHADIS, I dabbled with making a time travel game with a couple of my friends and later a scifi game based on something similar to Water World, only with undersea corporations feuding with one another over resources and such.



SHADIS was, for 20 or so issues, at least, was one of the very most 
useful and interesting RPG magazine. And I should say, I like to read
 how to improve my games. But Shadis wasn't your first game magazine
work, was it? I might be wrong on the dates, but D8 was easily one of
 my favorite magazines because it was so thoughtful, and you contributed to that. Would you ever return to create a game content
 RPG periodical? And, if so, how would you approach it now, as to 20
 years or more ago magazines were aimed?



Shadis was indeed my first magazine. I started it in 1990, a good five years before I was invited to write a column for D8 (I think I only managed to write two or three entries). Before Shadis, I had an article appear in the Traveler house magazine (Journal of the Traveler’s Aid Society). 

Crazy story, after I sold Shadis and set out to do KODT as a monthly comic, I was also working on launching a new magazine called, Boomer. The idea was to make it a general pop culture zine dedicated to, um, Boomers. Covering the old tv shows, albums and movies we grew up on as well as games and comics. Although I had some interested investors, I realized my time would be stretched more than it was and decided to focus on KODT exclusively for a while.

Although, I love the idea of doing another full blown gaming magazine, the truth is it’s more difficult today to do a periodical than ever. Most gaming companies self-promote on social media or through their own websites. There’s very little incentive to lay down a grand for a full page ad when you can advertise for free to your target audience online. Add to that the fact that almost all the gaming distributors have dropped periodicals completely, it’d be an enormous challenge to do a magazine unless it’s set up to survive without ad revenue (sort of the approach we have with KODT. Any realized ad revenue is simply extra gravy).

The only model I’ve seen is interesting are those magazines that go the crowd funding route, with each issue funded on Kickstarter and then sent to backers. Jim Wampler has had great success with this with his Scientific Barbarian magazine).

 Honestly, KODT is roughly 50% comic strips and 50% gaming articles and gaming related columns (many of which used to appear in Shadis, like The Good, The Bad and The Ugly and with many of the same freelancers). And it’s been like that since at least issue 50 of the comic. In many ways, it’s felt like I’m still doing Shadis, just under a different format. 

Interesting side note... Back in 1999 or so, my former partner at AEG contacted me offering to give Shadis back to me. They had the last issue sitting on the press. If we (KenzerCo) were willing to pay to have the issue printed and agreed to fulfill any current subscriptions, I could step back in and take it over. I think I surprised even myself when I immediately declined the offer. I loved the magazine and the journey it had taken me on but I think it was best to let it go.



What people, presumably in gaming, are inspirational for you, and
in what way did they lead to changes in your outlook? I suspect I 
know some of the names, but I know for my own list, and gaming, 
creating games, and philosophy of games, the list came from who
 created great works, people who inspired art and creative work, and 
made me think outside of the dice rolls.



Two people come to mind immediately, Gary Gygax of course, and Kevin Siembieda (Palladium Books). When I first started SHADIS it was on a shoe string budget out of a spare bedroom. And besides sending copies to all my friends and former players who had sat at my table, I wanted to send it to as many Gaming industry types as I could. I saw it as sort of my resume saying, “Hey, this is what I can do”, secretly hoping someone like Dragon Magazine would hire me. I laugh when I say that now. Anyway, of the 50 copies or so I mailed out to industry types, two people responded. Gary and Kevin.  Gary actually called me on the phone and we talked for about an hour. He was encouraging and told me I should keep doing what I was doing. It was a real pep talk to quite frankly, a nobody. And I couldn’t believe he was so down to earth and willing to share his wisdom and take the time. 

Kevin on the other hand send me a handwritten letter (two pages). It was hyper critical of my first issue. He complained about the unreadable font I had chosen for the body text, (“stick with times or Helvetica, there’s a reason every major publication used them”). Then, after thoroughly being crushed, the last paragraph read, “that said, I loved what I read. You should keep doing it. Enclosed is a check for a full page ad”.

 I have kept that letter and a photocopy of the check for over thirty-five years. I treasure them. He gave me honest feedback and he didn’t varnish hit. It was exactly what I needed to hear. If you ever look at Shadis #1 and compare it to Shadis #2 you’ll see a night and day change. I took everything he said to heart.



Another person who was inspirational was Rick Loomis of Flying Buffalo. Rick was one of the first old guard designers in the business who brought me into the club and treated me like a peer. I think that was just his nature but for years, he was always one of the first people I would seek out at every con to shake hands an catch up. When I was inducted into the GAMA Hall of Fame, I was told Rick personally requested the honor of handing me the award. I really miss that guy since his passing a few years ago.

 I could go on and on. So many people inspired me along the way over the years.

While I am sorry to ask this, since it sounds or feels juvenile in
 depth, but I think it would be valid to ask, do you find that there
 is one single game or game system that is better than all others? Is 
there a concept not yet birthed into game form, what is that? Would
 RPGs with pencil, papers and dice, have ever come into physical form
 without Gygax and Arneson making modifications to strategic miniature
games? Is there one game or system that makes no sense to you?



Tough question. I’ve played scores of RPGs over the years, and I’ve enjoyed most of them. If not. Because of the rules or system, but because of the GM and the players I tossed dice with. In my opinion there is no “best” game out there. It all comes down to personal preferences and style of play. While I LOVE AD&D, and played it for years, it’s not a game I’ve played for 25 years and I doubt I’ll ever play it again, other than a one off if asked to fill a chair. I was also a huge fan of Call of Cthulhu, Traveler, Gangbusters, Boothill and Top Secret. I was even really into Fasa’s Star Trek TOS rpg.

But like most game designers, I suppose, I’m biased. If I’m playing or running an RPG these days, I prefer one of our own games like HackMaster 5th edition or Aces and Eights. Both have crunchy rules but I love the combat system which doesn’t require a lot of table consulting and page flipping. It really comes down to bandwidth. We’re constantly developing new material for the games, so it just makes sense to combine work and play while focusing on them.

That said I’d love to play Fiasco someday. I also love the look of The Troubleshooters.



What can be said to be the greatest contribution to gaming, or
games, by the ttRPG? Does it force people to learn to be cooperative
or socially beneficial over individualist and selfish in their 
outlook? Is it the act of freeing a game from ironclad rules that
 allows a person to act creatively, and with all others perform a
 collective story?



All of the above. A friend of mine said it best recently, “RPGS force you to play well with others”. They also allow you to use your imagination and be childlike again.  I’m sure everyone is attracted to RPGS for their own reasons and come away with different benefits. For me, ever since I was a small child I was  just as content to being alone as I was playing others. But my natural inclination was to seek solitude. Be it writing or busying myself with some creative project (even if it was running battles of trench warfare with my G.I. Joes and model tanks in the ravine behind our house).

RPGs have more or less forced me to buck that tendency over the years, which I’m really grateful for. Nothing I love more than tossing dice with 5 to 12 friends. I think if I hadn’t discovered roleplaying games when I did, I’d have maintained far fewer friendships over the years and made far fewer new friends. 

I remember in high school one of my social study teachers told us, “You’ll make most  of your good friendships before you’re thirty, than you will after thirty.” I don’t know why that stuck with me but it did. But I can honestly say that for myself, the opposite is true. I’ve made far more friends afterwards. And almost all of them through gaming.



How great of an asset is your wonderful wife Barbara to your career in games? I think with certain genres and media it benefits the writer or creator to have someone to bounce ideas off of, but also, with her involvement, it must be a second set of eyes to help wade through the vast number of people wanting more access.



Without Barb nothing I’ve done since high school would have been the same. We met as Sophmores in high school and our mutual interest in writing immediately drew us together. We’ve been inseparable since. She was one of my first players when I discovered D&D, she was my sounding board for every crazy idea I ever had. And of course she helped launch SHADIS. She was also there when I drew the first KODT strip and the first to read it. Our lives are so intertwined when it comes to the comic, I can’t imagine ever doing it without her. She’s a gem.

With so many forms of media being non physical and only digital, does that drive creativity into a niche where aspects of gaming directly need the physical form. Does ttRPG stand to become a dinosaur in an ever changing media form? How will games change with the "times"?



I’m 66 so you’re talking to a guy who will always prefer print over digital. Nothing thrills me more tan getting a new issue or KODT or HackMaster product back from the printer with that new ink smell. It just has a way of recharging my creative batteries in a way a PDF never will. That said, I use digital versions of the rules and comics when working or looking up references. It’s just so much easier. I think there will always be room for both. I don’t see digital entirely replacing print regardless.



Last Question, How did having your daughter Amber change how you lived, played, and created?

Amber had cerebral palsy which in case impacted her motor control and speech. She was confined to a wheelchair her entire life and although she was smart as a whip, she was unable to vocalize words without great difficulty. And even then it took a parent’s ear to understand her (unless you’d been around her enough to develop an ear for her speech patterns). Most parents of children with CP with tell you the same thing. They tend to have hearts of gold and inspire others around them to be better people than the might otherwise be.



Jolly Blackburn
Kenzer and Company
Editor-in-Chief 
Knights of the Dinner Table Magazine
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Twitter: http://twitter.com/Jollybgood
Website: www.kenzerco.com

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